Braben a.f.e. posts re CIX takedown

These posts are taken from the CIX feed of the alt.fan.elite newsgroup.

Their context can also be established via Deja View.
Deja View copy of 'Elite Home Page threatened by Braben' thread.
Deja View copy of 'Braben changes his story on his Bell site take-down' thread.


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Article: 30610 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:27:49 +0100
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> Incoming Missile
> The ISP hosting this site has been threatened with legal action by one
David Braben who apparently objects to old elite conversions > being freely
available for download.

As has been discussed earlier this year on this group, I intend to offer old
versions of Elite, Frontier, etc for download from a part of our site at
Frontier (which is currently massively out of date). These will not be
public domain, but will not be charged for (a subtle distinction preserving
rights). It is likely that sources will also be made available.

Ironically I am prevented from putting Elite on our site as it was a joint
project and I do not have permission from Ian to do so. With this in mind I
inquired of CIX who had provided them with the site (as it may not be Ian
Bell), and asked for a contact address, making it clear my intentions.

It is only after a lack of any response that I have threatened action over
this. As I understand it, Ian sold his rights in Elite some time ago, though
Ian has never confirmed this to me. He no longer replies to mail, which is
why I tried to get an address through CIX.

It saddens me that this site appears to twist the facts to quite such a
degree. The mails posted on the site bear no resemblance to the mails I
sent. I intend to get to the bottom of this and will post again when I know
what has happened.


David Braben


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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: What the hell is going on? Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:41:19 +0100
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>Can't you patch things up you two? Did one of you do something awful to the
>other one or something?


Patching things up would be good, but it is long past that I'm afraid.
Events like this do nothing to reassure me that Ian has changed.

>> As has been discussed earlier this year on this group, I intend to offer
>old
>> versions of Elite, Frontier, etc for download from a part of our site at
>> Frontier (which is currently massively out of date). These will not be
>> public domain, but will not be charged for (a subtle distinction
>preserving
>> rights). It is likely that sources will also be made available.
>
>That is cool. Would the new license allow people to create and distribute
>their own variants, as long as it's not for profit? Please? Probably not, I
>glumly imagine :-/


Yes - the idea was to form a club of some sort, and members would have
access to the sources, though probably not for Elite. Members would be free
to distribute variants they had created subject to them having a 'club'
title page or something. It *could* be for profit (up to the member), but
the profits would have to be shared. We are still looking in to how to
organise this, and are in the process of checking its legality.

>> Ironically I am prevented from putting Elite on our site as it was a
joint
>> project and I do not have permission from Ian to do so. With this in mind
>I
>> inquired of CIX who had provided them with the site (as it may not be Ian
>> Bell), and asked for a contact address, making it clear my intentions.
>
>Sounds like CIX have got firm hold of the wrong end of the stick, and are
>now attempting, if I may continue the metaphor, to shove it up Ian. Can't
>you and he talk to each other directly instead of going crying to each
>other's ISPs?


It does seem that way, but I am being careful as the website may be bogus,
and/or it may be nothing to do with Ian (though this seems unlikely). It is
possible this is not the whole story. I'd be very surprised if CIX did not
explain the whole situation over the 'phone beforehand, for example. It is
also possible there are further mails, that didn't make it on to the site
for some reason.

>> It is only after a lack of any response that I have threatened action
over
>> this. As I understand it, Ian sold his rights in Elite some time ago,
>though
>> Ian has never confirmed this to me. He no longer replies to mail, which
is
>> why I tried to get an address through CIX.
>
>Who did you sell them to, Ian? Does that mean David will need permission
>from whoever bought them? What did you get in return? I hope it was worth
>it.


Indeed. Money is the answer.

>> It saddens me that this site appears to twist the facts to quite such a
>> degree. The mails posted on the site bear no resemblance to the mails I
>> sent.
>
>Perhaps that's because they're not mails from you, but email correspondence


To me it looks like he would rather the world were deprived of these
versions than let them appear on our site, and paint me as a bastard in the
process.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Changing Ian's Colors (Was: What the hell is going on? Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:33:47 +0100
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>> Yes - the idea was to form a club of some sort, and members would have
>> access to the sources, though probably not for Elite. Members would be
free
>> to distribute variants they had created subject to them having a 'club'
>> title page or something. It *could* be for profit (up to the member), but
>> the profits would have to be shared. We are still looking in to how to
>> organise this, and are in the process of checking its legality.
>
>Oh! Internet Elite. Would you participate in the action Mr.Braben?


Of course! What is the point if you can't enjoy it.

>The possibility of Ian's site being "fake" is hard to swallow.


As I said, it seems unlikely but it *is* possible, and I don't want to
bad-mouth Ian if it is someone else. You should know about impersonators
Louis! ;-)

>> Indeed. Money is the answer.
>
>Therein lies the conflict. But remember, Elite was about_quarrels. Not only
>does this Newsgroup reflect that trait but also its creators! ;-)


And piracy. Damn.


;-)


David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:48:30 +0100
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Thomas Harte wrote in message <37D6A015.3212DEF0@btinternet.com>...
>> Having read the pages and the subsequent reply from Mr Braben (and
>> remove a few select files from my server) I'd just like to announce that
>> I am not taking sides at all here and I remain completely neutral.
>
> There doesn't really seem to be a side to take judging by David Brabens
post
>- he is just trying to get to the bottom of the copyright matter.


Indeed.

It is the injustice at not being able to (legally) do what he is doing
already. He knows I'm unlikely to sue him. I'm not so sure the reverse is
the case.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:48:30 +0100
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Thomas Harte wrote in message <37D6A015.3212DEF0@btinternet.com>...
>> Having read the pages and the subsequent reply from Mr Braben (and
>> remove a few select files from my server) I'd just like to announce that
>> I am not taking sides at all here and I remain completely neutral.
>
> There doesn't really seem to be a side to take judging by David Brabens
post
>- he is just trying to get to the bottom of the copyright matter.


Indeed.

It is the injustice at not being able to (legally) do what he is doing
already. He knows I'm unlikely to sue him. I'm not so sure the reverse is
the case.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 09:47:57 +0100
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James Franklin wrote in message <7r7nh6$tdi$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I think this is getting blown up out of proportion (mainly due to CIX
>by the looks of it). In their first message to Ian Bell they say:
>
>"To confirm our conversation of earlier, we have been approached
>regarding part of the contents of your web site.


It is not impossible that the whole story was communicated during that phone
call.

>Ian Bell asks for the actual emails from David Braben, which CIX
>ignores. Perhaps if they had responded to the Ian Bell's request in
>full, then this could have been resolved "behind closed doors" rather
>than in a public forum.


Indeed, though Ian is also ignoring CIX. The only deduction for me is that
Ian (or whoever is running the site) wanted it to go public. Why else post
the emails on a website and shortcut to them from here rather than attempt
to resolve it in private?

>I would be surprised if David Braben really wants to such damage to the
>Elite community, with all the support that has been given to the series.


Too right.

David Braben


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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:36:05 +0100
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M.R.Heres wrote in message <37D7CB53.F62B9263@cpedu.rug.nl>...
>>
>
> Personally I don't see the use of this action. So one (public)site is
>down there are so manny
>that still have it. Mayby not so extensive and dedicated to the game. The
>same happened with


I suggest you read my other posts to this thread. My intention is not to
stop distribution of Elite.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: What the hell is going on? Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:43:33 +0100
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matty@nojunk.co.uk wrote in message <37d7faa7.112869293@news.clara.net>...
>"David Braben" wrote:


>How is putting these versions on his site 'depriving the world' of them?
>And how is he preventing you putting them on your site?


He refuses to give me permission to do so. If I were to go ahead in that
knowledge, a court would (rightly) look very dimly on such behaviour. Do you
really think he wouldn't sue me? Am I prepared to take that risk? No.

>YOU are the one who sues everyone, remember?


You need to read the details more carefully.

>> and paint me as a bastard in the process.
>
>You've done a fairly good job of that your self.


That's for the reader to decide.

David Braben


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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: What the hell is going on? Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:44:46 +0100
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Thomas Harte wrote in message <37D8480C.71C7ED77@btinternet.com>...

> And the more people around here and other such places over-react, the more
>likely this outcome is.


Well put!

David Braben


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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: What the hell is going on? Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:38:22 +0100
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Matt W wrote in message ...
>In article , David Braben
> writes
>>Yes - the idea was to form a club of some sort, and members would have
>>access to the sources, though probably not for Elite. Members would be
free
>>to distribute variants they had created subject to them having a 'club'
>>title page or something. It *could* be for profit (up to the member), but
>>the profits would have to be shared. We are still looking in to how to
>>organise this, and are in the process of checking its legality.
>
>The way I see it - you have copyrights to the original code - we could
>have copyrights on the extra bits - and share profits equally. - that I
>reckon is totally legal.


That is the idea.

>Ian would also need your permission would he not - If he can do it you
>should be allowed to as well.


He does - that is (indirectly) why he site has gone.

David Braben

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Article: 30721 of alt.fan.elite
From: "David Braben"
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:55:02 +0100


Robin Johnson wrote in message ...
>James Hunt wrote in message
>news:7r8va5$j5a$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>- Braben asks CIX whether Bell has the distribution rights,
>
>- CIX misinterprets this and tells Bell that Braben has 'complained',


Interestingly, I no longer think CIX are to blame. One of the directors of
CIX asserted to me on the telephone that there were far more mails that
passed between them, so Ian was fully aware of what I wanted. For some
reason these were not quoted on the site.

>- Bell hates Braben so much he won't comply to Braben's 'threat',
>
>- The folks at CIX adjust their ties and relieve Bell of his web space.
>
>Life sucks, doesn't it?


Yes, sadly.

>> >Just go away and write a half-decent game by yourself.
>>
>> Write a game HIMSELF? Who does that nowadays?
>
>Me! http://www.nondescript.f9.co.uk/earth/rearth.htm
>I play it all by myself too!
>
>> Besides, evidently you've never played V2000. Hours of gameplay in that
>> alone, not to mention some beautiful graphics.


Kind of you to say so.


David Braben


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Article: 30722 of alt.fan.elite
From: "David Braben"
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:59:24 +0100


Igor or Maksim Orlovich wrote in message
<7r9nq5$i0m$1@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net>...
>
>> I am not biased - except David Braben replies to my e-mails.
>
>Again, I'm as neutral, but chances are, Bell lost his ISP account, and
can't
>respond..Probably the whole thing is just a misunderstanding. Let's not
jump
>to conclusions here.


It is my understanding from CIX that they have simply suspended Ian's web
space. In any case he probably has many ISPs (as do I) - they're pretty easy
and quick to get.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:17:31 +0100
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Andrew McPherson wrote in message <37D888C9.A4C28FE1@paradise.net.nz>...

>It's gone, does anyone have anything to say about Braben, the git?
>I thought Ian Bell could do what he liked with his software?

1. It is a shame it is gone.
2. Elite was a joint project. We each need the other's permission.
3. I understand Ian has sold his rights in any case.
4. All I am after is to put it on our site.

David Braben

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Article: 30740 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:26:01 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7r5nkv$htf$1@plutonium.compulink.co.uk> <37D69970.2E43F1F5@cwcom.net> <37D69DA8.73A5FB1@cwcom.net> <37D6A015.3212DEF0@btinternet.com> <37d7f9fe.112701008@
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matty@nojunk.co.uk wrote in message <37d8d86b.169650554@news.clara.net>...

>>If David was really trying to close down Ian's site, there wouldn't be
>>any point in him asking whether Ian owned copyright on Elite.
>
>What is this bollocks? Where is the email from Braben 'asking' if Ian has
>copyright? The ISP says they were threatened by Braben, not asked. Is
>Braben calling the ISP a liar? Why does he not just post his emails or
>some other proof.


Matty,

Thank you for your reasoned argument. I realise you are nothing to do with
Ian Bell, of course, and that your appearance on this NG at the same time as
Ian Bell's web pages moving to clara.net is purely coincidence.

I had a long email and telephone dialogue with the (very helpful) guys from
CIX. I explained the situation to them, and they were most reasonable. This
started back in June. CIX particularly were respectful of their duty of care
to their customers and were prevented from revealing details under the Data
Protection Act. They could not even confirm the identity of the site holder.

A director of CIX has asserted to me and I beleive them, that the purported
emails that appeared on the www.cix.co.uk/~ibell website did not reflect the
real emails that went between CIX and the site holder. From what he said, I
suspect these were perhaps part of a correspondence, not the whole. Sadly
they were prevented from providing these to me under the DPA.

I have asked CIX to put a single page explaining what has happened to the
ibell site in its place. They are currently considering this.

I did eventually ask CIX to remove the material. It was the only sanction
left to me and I thought it would bring the issue to a head. This is after
several months. CIX were also exasperated by the whole process.

Incidentally, Matty, we can still rescue this:

--------
To Ian Bell, co-author of Elite:
If you can confirm to me that you have sold your rights in Elite to this
third party, tell me what rights you believe to have been sold, then that
can be the end of the matter. I can then approach the third party directly
and ask for their permission to make the Elite files available again for
download. This will have to be by a way that a court would consider valid,
either headed notepaper from your home address, or a solicitor's letter.
Sadly, it is all too easy to dispute the identity of a message via email.

If you still have your rights to the old Elite images, then all I ask is for
the right to put them on our site available for download. I would then grant
you the retrospective right to do the same on your site. The only condition
of this is that the copyright messages be left intact or restored, so that
it is clear that the game has not been placed in the public domain, and I
will do the same.

I only contact you in such a public forum because of the difficulty of
contacting you by any other means.
--------

I do not feel any more proof of my intentions than this is required.


David Braben

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Article: 30813 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:33:25 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7r5nkv$htf$1@plutonium.compulink.co.uk><37D69970.2E43F1F5@cwcom.net> <37D69DA8.73A5FB1@cwcom.net><37D6A015.3212DEF0@btinternet.com> <37d7f9fe.112701008@new
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Matt W wrote in message <2+comDA$pW23EwRX@ponsanooth0.demon.co.uk>...
>In article >ield.ac.uk>, S.Challands writes
>
>the only good thing is that both Ian and David have made a lot of posts
>:)


... Or should we say Matty and David?

;-)

David Braben

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Article: 30815 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 15:42:29 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7r5nkv$htf$1@plutonium.compulink.co.uk><37D69970.2E43F1F5@cwcom.net> <37D69DA8.73A5FB1@cwcom.net><37D6A015.3212DEF0@btinternet.com> <37d7f9fe.112701008@new
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John Jordan wrote in message <0di1tXAW7Z23Ewis@jaj22.demon.co.uk>...
>> (and
>>getting a big legal bill which he had to pay himself).
>
>I doubt he was aiming to make a profit. I take it he did win the case
>though? I've only ever seen versions of the interview with the offending
>bits removed.


Ian issued a statement retracting what he said. This was enough for me. As
you say, my goal was not to make a profit.

David Braben

------------17------------
Article: 30817 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:04:46 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7r5nkv$htf$1@plutonium.compulink.co.uk> <37D69970.2E43F1F5@cwcom.net> <37D69DA8.73A5FB1@cwcom.net> <37D6A015.3212DEF0@btinternet.com> <37DA456F.7FC63C7C@c
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Matt Dibb wrote in message <37DA456F.7FC63C7C@cwcom.net>...
>
>> It is the injustice at not being able to (legally) do what he is doing
>> already. He knows I'm unlikely to sue him. I'm not so sure the reverse is
>> the case.
>
>'unlikely' ?! :) Anyway - its not really the legal situation, its to
>cover myself when it comes round to the flame war or something that will
>inevitably start about this sometime.


I said 'unlikely' and that's what I meant. I don't mean - "Ahh double six,
guess I'll call my lawyer", I mean it depends on what he does - I'm covering
myself. Don't forget this is a public forum. If I were to say "I will not
sue under any circumstances" that could be a hostage to fortune.

For example, if the site holder were to put a banner up on the same site
claiming I had stolen "Elite" from him or whatever, then I would have to
sue, as it might compromise "Elite IV". I think this sort of thing is
unlikely, hence it is unlikely I will sue. The irrational correpondence that
has followed suggests an element of doubt is understandable.

David Braben

------------18------------
Article: 30901 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Ian Bell / Elite-page
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:34:27 +0100
Message-ID:
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Tom Morton wrote in message <7reift$bu3$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>David Braben wrote in message
>news:FRNT3924222B32@frontier.co.uk...
>>
>> Juha Ekholm wrote in message <37d9d2e8.672760999@news.funet.fi>...
>> >Is it only me having some problems or is Ian Bell's Elite-page dead
>> >now?
>> >
>> >According to the discussion circulating here D. Braben has been trying
>> >to get it off the net and I'm wondering that has he finally succeeded?
>>
>> Not true.
>>
>> I suggest you read the thread about it elsewhere in this group.
>
>It looks like cix have kicked him off. Would it have been so hard to email/
>phone him directly and avoid this stupid misunderstanding?


I've already discussed this on this NG. Ian ignores my mail, and I do not
have a 'phone number for him any more. Ian, if you are reading this, feel
free to call me on 01223 811753 ex 12.

I suggest you read the matty@nojunk.co.uk mails, and draw what conclusions
you will from them.

David Braben

------------19------------
Article: 30907 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:11:04 +0100
Message-ID:
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Damien Guard wrote in message <37dcd07a.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>...
>Why don't they just both agree and give permission for a third party to
host
>an official "Elite Archive" that contains no Elite Politics...


Fine idea. We could then both shortcut to it. This might keep Ian happy,
too.

David Braben

------------20------------
Article: 30909 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: "Sold Out"
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:19:42 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <37DA4F5E.F4135504@btinternet.com> <7re0mo$g4v$1@nclient9-gui.server.ntli.net> <37DBBD85.5601E5BE@NOSPAMhammerstein.demon.co.uk> <7rh1v3$oh6$1@news8.svr.po
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rygar wrote in message <7rh1v3$oh6$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>I have Elite Plus here, from Empire.
>Bought it singally (though suspect a pack was split, as I had a few empire
>cds at a time)
>" (C) 1996 Empire Interactive
> (C) Bell & Braben
> Elite Plus Programming
> (C) Chris Sawyer "
>
>Where is Chris Sawyer these days?


He recently did the excellent "Railroad Tycoon" with Hasbro/Microprose, and
is going from strength to strength.


David Braben

------------21------------
Article: 30995 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: simple ? that may end Braben/Bell debate
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:49 +0100
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Michael Pallotto wrote in message
<7rkqv9$qvq$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>ok...hopefully everyone will agree with this simple logic. >programmer but i play one on tv> If Mr Braben is looking to make sure that

>...

Please read the long discussions on the thread "Elite homepage threatened by
Braben".

I am after permission to put the games on our site. Bell is blocking this.

David Braben


------------22------------
Article: 30996 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.space-sim,alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Message to David Braben
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:08:06 +0100
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The Starglider wrote in message ...
>David Braben - you are a fucking twat.
>
>Why did you get Ian Bell's site shut down.
>
>We all know he was the talented one out of the two of you.


Clearly you are a wise and well-informed person. I suggest you look at my
posts to the thread "Elite homepage threatened by Braben" on alt.fan.elite
before jumping to too many conclusions.

Quite why you chose to cross-post I do not know, but in order to avoid a
flame war on this here is some info:

In summary I understand Bell has sold his rights in Elite. He will neither
confirm this nor give permission for me to put "Elite" for free download on
my site. Following a long dialogue of many months, during which I could get
neither confirmation of the identity of the site holder nor a response I
asked CIX to close the site down. I have even offered retrospective
permission for the site as long as he will do the same for me. I fully
expect the site will be restored as soon as Bell bothers to get in touch
with me.


David Braben

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Article: 31092 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite Home Page threatened by Braben
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 17:37:54 +0100
Message-ID:
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matty@nojunk.co.uk wrote in message <37de21cc.58282474@news.clara.net>...
>That is not what the letter from the ISP to Bell said. If I remember right
>it said Braben threatened to sue over the distribution of the Elite game,
>nothing about who was the owner of the game. If anyone took a copy of this
>letter before it was taken down, that will be proof, unless Braben's is
>going to claim the ISP is a liar.


>Braben - if you really did not threaten the ISP with legal action to
>withdraw Bell's files, then post your correspondence as proof, as Bell has
>done.

As you know "proof" on the internet is a dodgy thing. It the stuff of flame
wars. I have posted to this thread that a director of CIX has told me that
the purported emails that appeared on www.cix.co.uk/~ibell were not the
truth. This argument could run and run.

The only thing that matters is how we go from here. I stand by what I said:

--------
To Ian Bell, co-author of Elite:
If you can confirm to me that you have sold your rights in Elite to this
third party, tell me what rights you believe to have been sold, then that
can be the end of the matter. I can then approach the third party directly
and ask for their permission to make the Elite files available again for
download. This will have to be by a way that a court would consider valid,
either headed notepaper from your home address, or a solicitor's letter.
Sadly, it is all too easy to dispute the identity of a message via email.

If you still have your rights to the old Elite images, then all I ask is for
the right to put them on our site available for download. I would then grant
you the retrospective right to do the same on your site. The only condition
of this is that the copyright messages be left intact or restored, so that
it is clear that the game has not been placed in the public domain, and I
will do the same.

I only contact you in such a public forum because of the difficulty of
contacting you by any other means.
--------

I do not feel any more proof of my intentions than this is required.

I suggest Ian or "matty", simply posts here (or mails or 'phones me) with a
suggestion of where to go from here, rather than getting involved in a
petty, muck-raking and childish dialogue.

David Braben

------------24------------
Article: 31099 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: simple ? that may end Braben/Bell debate
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:12:24 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7rkqv9$qvq$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7rlrfv$dj$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> TvD3.19712$Ze2.614335@nnrp3.clara.net> <37de9585.4445303@news.clara.net>
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John Jordan wrote in message ...
>Oh dear. You seem to have forced me into some Dejanews logic...

>

Thanks for that!

>Also, I don't think you can deny that Ian has had plenty of opportunity
>to respond on this group.

Indeed. It is not too late to reinstate the site.

>Still, there is something a little wrong with
>David's offer, as reposted below:
>
>[snip]
>* All the site holder (Ian? Matty? Are they the same?) had to do was to
>* reply saying what the current situation was with the rights (again,
>* see other posts), but they have behaved extremely irrationally. The
>* site may still be restored. I have offered retrospective permission
>* (on this NG) for him to restore his web pages, if he gives me the
>* same.
>[snip]
>
>AFAICT this offer doesn't cover the (probable) situation where Ian has
>in fact sold the rights. Hence Ian has little incentive to respond in
>this case.


This is a problem I suppose. My thoughts were that if he no longer had the
rights then my offering permission is not sufficient. I think a dialogue
would be a good idea. That is what I'm after.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: simple ? that may end Braben/Bell debate
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:21:43 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7rkqv9$qvq$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7rlrfv$dj$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <37de855b.307244@news.clara.net> <7rm30l
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Tom Morton wrote in message <7rm60g$2k1$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>Why not ask for David Braben's (unbiassed...) opinion since he knows
>Ian better than us. Could this... thing be your old pal Ian Bell?


My view is that it is quite likely. At the very least I think it is someone
who is directly in touch with Ian and acting as a spokesperson, as they have
raised issues that as far as I know have only been brought up by Ian in the
past, like the issue of the size of the fees for the libel action.

The Ian I knew would not lie, though, but he has changed a great deal since
then in other ways so I am no longer sure. It could, for example be Ian's
cat, and Ian is simply holding its paw to press the keys (joke).

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: simple ? that may end Braben/Bell debate
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:47:10 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7rkqv9$qvq$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7rlrfv$dj$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <37de855b.307244@news.clara.net><7rm30l$k
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John Jordan wrote in message ...
>matty@nojunk.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>Because legal action does not get the information as we can now all see.
>>The only guaranteed response Braben got was removal of the site,
>>indicating this was his intention all along.
>
>Implying that David knew that Ian had sold the copyright, and so went
>through the motions simply to make sure that CIX would kick him off
>without too much complaint?
>
>I don't like this version because it relies on David having deliberately
>lied in practically every post. I prefer the cock-up theory version.


I *do* beleive Ian had sold his rights to Elite, though Ian has never
confirmed (or denied) this to me. He has simply stopped answering
correspondence. I thought (and still think) that he most likely retained
permission to keep the old images on his site, but I cannot rely on this in
order to put them on our site.

As for the "kicking off" issue - I didn't expect it to go this far. I
thought a threat of closure would get a response from the site holder and I
could carry on from there. Perhaps I was naive, but I have not lied.

David Braben


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!frontier.co.uk!anonymous
From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: PC Format article about Elite.
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:17 +0100
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Tom Morton wrote in message <7rod9k$nn$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>I suggest you have a look at:
>
>http://www.pcformat.co.uk/newsread.asp?story_id=274
>
>Looks like Matty/Ian Bell is trying to stir up trouble.


I 'phoned the editor and asked him to have a look at alt.fan.elite and make
his own judgement. The story has now been replaced by:

http://www.pcformat.co.uk/newsread.asp?story_id=275

And on that note - thanks to all that mailed me the URL.

David Braben


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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: simple ? that may end Braben/Bell debate
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:23:27 +0100
Message-ID:
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matty@nojunk.co.uk wrote in message <37df9484.69734877@news.clara.net>...
>John Jordan wrote:
>
>> Ian would have a good case against him, assuming that he does
>>still own his half of the rights.
>
>A case against him for what? There is no money to sue for.


Damages from derogotary (sp?) treatment of copyright, for example. Or claim
for commercial use, if it is put on the website of a commercial company like
Frontier Developments, even if money is not made directly from it.

Arguably Frontier (or myself) are a more 'juicy' target than Ian.

>But he fails to admit his threatened action was to take the site down, and
>he attempts to throw a smoke screen by claiming "this site appears to
>twist the facts to quite such a degree. The mails posted on the site bear
>no resemblance to the mails I sent." From memory the mails do support the
>facts as later revealed.
>
>Did anyone get copies of these emails before the site went down?


I have copies. CIX have copies. I have been told by a director of CIX that
the purported email trail from CIX was bogus, and this was a major factor in
them removing the site.

As you know, I have never denied asking for the site to be removed, but this
was only after failing to get a response after three months of trying.


David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: PC Format article about Elite.
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:08:35 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7rod9k$nn$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <7rol0b$r71$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <7rolo9$72b$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>
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James Hunt wrote in message <7rolo9$72b$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>Ian Bell And David Braben At Loggerheads Over Web Site


Another piece of sloppy journalism. I'll contact them tomorrow. And no, I
did not lose the EMAP case. I *accepted* an offer of compensation from EMAP
and there was a screw-up with this process.

Thanks to Paul and James for letting me know.


David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: PC Format article about Elite.
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:12:01 +0100
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Matt W wrote in message ...
>In article <7rod9k$nn$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>, Tom Morton >station.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>>I suggest you have a look at:
>>
>>http://www.pcformat.co.uk/newsread.asp?story_id=274
>>
>>Looks like Matty/Ian Bell is trying to stir up trouble.
>>
>>I have already emailed the editor.
>me as well - I did it when my subscription issue came through.


Did it appear in the printed version? We've stopped getting it here.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: PC Format article about Elite.
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:22:05 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7rod9k$nn$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <7rol0b$r71$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <7rolo9$72b$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk> <37DFE263.2E63
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James Hunt wrote in message <7roo44$9d8$1@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>Thomas Harte wrote in message <37DFE263.2E638AD1@btinternet.com>...
>>> Another piece of sloppy journalism. I'll contact them tomorrow. And no,
I
>>
>> And a third : http://www.davesvgc.com . At least that one won't make it
>onto
>>paper though.
>>
>
>For all interested parties, this article also links to:
>
>http://www.emuclassics.com/nesworld/
>
>Which contains yet more of the same.


Sigh. Thanks.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Press Release about the ibell website (long)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:27:37 +0100
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PRESS RELEASE

A number of publishers, including PC Format and PC Zone, have been taken in
by a scurrilous ‘press release’ purporting to be from Ian Bell, co-author of
the 80’s classic “Elite”. They have published elements from this without
first checking the facts, but they have behaved very reasonably and have
amended their stories after reading postings to the USENET group
alt.fan.elite, and discussing the issue with CIX and myself. This release is
intended to set the record straight.

As was discussed earlier this year on the newsgroup, I intend to offer old
versions of Elite, Frontier, etc for download from a part of Frontier
Developments ’s web site (which is currently massively out of date), as long
as we can get the required clearances. These will not be public domain, but
will not be charged for (a subtle distinction preserving rights). It is
likely that sources will also be made available via an “Elite Club”.

Ironically I am prevented from putting Elite on our site as it was a joint
project and I do not have permission from Ian to do so. To further
complicate this I believe Ian has sold his rights in Elite, but have no
confirmation of this from Ian, who has not been replying to my
correspondence. With this in mind I inquired of CIX (the publishers of the
site) as to the identity of the site holder (as it may not be Ian Bell), and
asked for a contact address, making my wishes to offer Elite very clear,
together with an offer of retrospective permission for Ian Bell’s site.

It is only after a lack of any response over a period of three months that I
asked CIX to remove the site. Rather than finally triggering a response as I
expected, this caused a purported email correspondence between ibell and
staff at CIX to be placed on the site. A director of CIX has told me that
these purported mails were far from complete and seriously misrepresent the
dialogue between CIX and ibell, putting both CIX and myself in a very bad
light. I understand it was this that was the final trigger for the removal
of the site.

I am happy to discuss any of the issues involved, including issues raised in
the dodgy press release. I strongy suggest that web publishers remove this
from their sites, or at least check out the facts for themselves.

This problem can still be sorted out and the web site possibly re-instated.
For more details please look at the lengthy dialogue on the USENET group
alt.fan.elite (which can be seen on the Deja News Archives at
www.deja-news.com if they are no longer on your news server).


David Braben

I can be contacted at: dbraben@frontier.co.uk

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite copyright ?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:29:12 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <7rkqv9$qvq$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <7rlrfv$dj$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> <37de855b.307244@news.clara.net> <7rm30
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Jan Knutar wrote in message <37e139ce.140598847@news.nic.fi>...
>On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 03:06:26 +0100, John Jordan
> wrote:
>
>I'm not so sure that Ian has sold the rights for Elite...
>
>In June I posted on a.f.e that I had searched through all the computer
>stores, but not found FE2 or FFE. I had found Elite+ for sale.
>
>A few days after i made that post, an email from Ian Bell arrived,
>asking where I bought the game, the publisher, etc.


As I've said on another thread, any such correspondence (even email) would
be useful. It also shows Ian is a regular lurker here. Ian?

>He was obviously concerned in the sales of Elite+. He said "I'm
>curious about ongoing sales since they are unlicensed.". That indicate
>that he, atleast at that point, had the copyight for Elite.


That is the nub of the problem. As far as I'm concerned they *were* licensed
(through Entertainment International). Perhaps there's a dispute between Ian
and the third party?

Perhaps the various lurkers can now see why I'm being wary here.

>The biggest problem as I see it is that Braben and Bell hate eachother
>too much to be able to work out a compromise.


Not at all. I think Ian has become very bitter, and is perhaps amused by the
confusion he is causing. The Elite images are back on the web, so the only
person who is losing out here is Ian. Perhaps he will now relent as he is
now only damaging his own reputation by inaction, and I think this still
means a lot to him.

David Braben


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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Opinions: Elite (DB/IB) views from www.davesvgc.com
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:46:53 +0100
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Jan Knutar wrote in message <37e14123.142477640@news.nic.fi>...
>On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 07:39:31 +0100, "rygar"
> wrote:
>
>>It's old, so its no longer copywright.
>
>I think i has to be 50 years old to not be copyrighted anymore...


It used to be the case that copyright subsisted for 50 years *after the
death* of the creator of the work.

Various woolly thinkers in government and the EU extended this to 75 years
throught the EU (as this was the case in France), but they draughted the law
in a stupid way. This meant that some things came back in to copyright,
putting some people in a *very* difficult position, with copyright-violating
works already for sale, which I think is unreasonable.

This included Holst's "The Planet Suite". I was very lucky as FE2 nearly
included some of the pieces from the Planet Suite, but fortunately I thought
they didn't fit in well. The lady who now owns the rights (a distant
relation of Holst) has been vigorously persuing people for fees. Since she
could ask what she liked, this would almost certainly have meant it would
have to have been withdrawn (the law came in long after FE2 was out).


David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: To Mr Braben
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:12:17 +0100
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Jan Knutar wrote in message <37e1414f.142520642@news.nic.fi>...
>On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:36:03 +0100, "Yolande Saunders"
> wrote:
>
>Why do I think this ? Well, as I already stated in an earlier post, I
>was contacted by Ian B because I had bought Elite+ recently. He asked
>about the publisher and so on and stated that he was interested in
>ongoing sales of elite+ since they were unlicensed.


Was this in writing? I would greatly appreciate a copy, if so. June 1999 is
quite a time after I beleive the rights were sold, and it might help pin
down what rights Ian thought he had at that time.

>I think that would indicate that he did have the rights for Elite,
>atleast in June 1999.


Looks that way, doesn't it. And that is the time I first tried to get in
touch regarding putting the files on www.frontier.co.uk. I wonder if it was
a coincidence?

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Frontier Developments Website
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:01:50 +0100
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CMore85155 wrote in message
<19990916153716.02107.00001047@ng-fa1.aol.com>...
>When did Braben get round to updating his website?

Yesterday. We have different internal and external websites, and had let the
external one get way out of date. I expect we will change it regularly from
now on.

>When he says "We have two very different multi-platform titles in
development,
>and a third title on the drawing board" which of these is Elite IV? Would
Mr
>Braben like to comment?

Elite IV is the one in the design stage.

>Also do the jobs advertised mean Frontier Developments is expanding?
(possibly
>to cope with the huge amount of work needed to create an Elite IV worthy of
>people's expectations?)

Yes, though we have been expanding slowly already. Some may have seen our
ads in "Edge" magazine.

Elite IV has to be earth-shattering to recover from the damage done by FFE
not living up to expectations. This means it is a massive undertaking.

>Also www.release-dates.co.uk has Elite IV down for a 2001 and release. Is
this
>just speculation?


Yes.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite copyright ?
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:19:14 +0100
Message-ID:
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Tom Morton wrote in message <7rtv54$oh$2@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>Out of interest, what has Ian written since Elite?


No games (to my knowledge), but perhaps a lot of emails.

He did do a few games before "Elite" - three games that I know of, anyway -
Reversi (ie "Othello"), Freefall (a game with a space man in what looks like
a washing machine, from Acornsoft), and "Seal Cull" (though perhaps this
doesn't fit in with his current image!). As far as I know there is nothing
to stop him putting these up on his website.



David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Elite copyright ?
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:27:06 +0100
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Jan Knutar wrote in message <37e29196.8376317@news.nic.fi>...
>On Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:29:12 +0100, "David Braben"
> wrote:
>
>>As I've said on another thread, any such correspondence (even email) would
>>be useful. It also shows Ian is a regular lurker here. Ian?
>
>This was my point, that Ian can read this. Although the email arrived
>from CIX... Perhaps CIX terminated his account completely ?


The email would still be very useful, please.

>>That is the nub of the problem. As far as I'm concerned they *were*
licensed
>>(through Entertainment International). Perhaps there's a dispute between
Ian
>>and the third party?
>
>Are they licensed today ? Because I know where they sell Elite+ still
>today.


No, they have just expired, but I think it is legit for shops to sell all
their stock.

>> The Elite images are back on the web, so the only
>>person who is losing out here is Ian.
>
>you bring out a good point here.
>
>This all has gotten out of hands, your little tap in the back to check
>if he's got the rights has escalated into a flamewar. Perhaps Ian in
>his bitterness(?) thought he could damage you by letting CIX shut down
>his site. The plan would perhaps have been to turn everyone against
>you.

>
>This seems to have backfired, partly because the images are now
>located on several other sites and because you defended yourself very
>actively in a.f.e


I think this *was* the site-holder's intention. I think it was also helpful
that CIX got in touch with the press pointing out that what was being said
was untrue.

>> Perhaps he will now relent as he is
>>now only damaging his own reputation by inaction, and I think this still
>>means a lot to him.
>
>I think it would be difficult for him to contact you any more. Why ?
>Because it would be a kind of a confession that he loosed, that he was
>wrong. If I'd be in Ian's position, I would hesitate contacting you.


I see what you mean, but it could also be magnanimous, and he may win back
many of those people whose respect he has lost as a result.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Press Release about the ibell website (long)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:21:48 +0100
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@nojunk.co.uk <@nojunk.co.uk> wrote in message
<37e41f2e.230477@news.clara.net>...
>"David Braben" wrote:
>
>You repeatedly claim Ian Bell's press release contains falsehoods. Would
>you care to tell us what these are? And tell us why you are not suing him
>for libel?


Life is too short. What he has said so far is not particularly damaging.

>>With this in mind I inquired of CIX (the publishers of the
>>site) as to the identity of the site holder (as it may not be Ian Bell),
>
>You've claimed the site may not be from Ian Bell (despite the fact Bell
>has confirmed it is), the press release may be from a hoaxer and that
>there are imposter Ian Bell's all over the internet, yet there is no
>evidence at all to support this. Why are you making these claims?


The internet is full of hoaxers and anoymous chancers. I do not need to
demonstrate that, do I. There have been imposters of myself, why not Ian
Bell? I think the CIX site probably *was* the real Ian Bell in the past, but
title to these things change hands, as do rights. Ian has certainly *not*
confirmed the identity of the site, and by his inaction is doing the
opposite.

>>It is only after a lack of any response over a period of three months that
I
>>asked CIX to remove the site.
>
>If your complaint was about a handful of copyright files, why did you ask
>for the whole site removed? Was it anything to to with the fact that the
>site published legal material from your other attempts to sue people?


This is explained in the press release - I did not ask for the "whole site"
as such to be removed, but I do object to Elite being used to peddle the
distorted and inaccurate legal stuff.

>> A director of CIX has told me that...
>
>You repeatedly quote 'a director of CIX' but never say who this is. Why do
>you not name him, unless because your claims of what he said are lies?


I am getting tired of these repeated anonymous allegations. CIX have asked
to be kept out of this, this is why I have tried to avoid naming specific
people, and not posted copies of private emails. I stand by what I said.

Unless you post something new, I will not be replying to your posts in the
future.

David Braben


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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Press Release about the ibell website (long)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:01:58 +0100
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@nojunk.co.uk <@nojunk.co.uk> wrote in message
<37e757c5.61280319@news.clara.net>...
>"In2home" wrote:
>
>>"Ian Bell Apology and Retraction
>>
>>PC Zone
>> We now know these statements to be false.
>
>Interesting - so a magazine who has seen the evidence from both Bell and
>Braben has concluded Braben lied.


You really are desperate to keep this flamewar going.

As I said in another thread - I think they are after a quiet life. I have
spoken to someone at Dennis Publishing, and they have confirmed this is the
case - they don't want to get into this mess. Fascinatingly they told me
they also are unsure of the identity of the site holder, as this 'ibell'
refused to speak to them by 'phone - only email.

They have simply said that their statements are false. Saying something is
false does not mean the opposite is true - and this is what the guy at
Dennis told me. It does not mean I lied, and it is not how I read it.

For example the statement 'almost entirely factually innacurate' is false if
it is completely factually innaccurate, or just mildly innaccurate. "Bell
put 'blah' on his site" is false if there is some doubt that it was Bell
that put it there. It does not mean 'blah' is false.

>So if Braben was telling the truth, presumably he'll have something to say
>about this, and if he was lying, he'll have no choice but to let it drop.
>We will see.


This has degenerated into an irrelevant side discussion about the past. If
Bell comes out into the open we can easily resolve this. Perhaps I have been
misled by CIX, PC Zone, PC Format, etc etc. Or perhaps I have been run a
merry dance by the site holder. Please note I am posting in my own name not
some veil of anonymity, unlike yourself.


David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Press Release about the ibell website (long)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:04:23 +0100
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Jon Hunt wrote in message <7s5su3$j6a$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>What clinches it for me is David saying the CIX/Ian email is bogus, but
then
>saying the true email is private so he cannot reveal it. David may or may
>not be lying, but his behaviour is definitely what a liar would have to do
>in this situation.


An awkward conundrum! - but I think you misread the post slightly. I was
simply not going to reveal who I was dealing with at CIX (It was more than
one person), as they understandably did not want to get dragged in to this
argument.

The trouble is I *do not* have copies of the emails between CIX and their
site holder, at least as long as CIX have been telling the truth, which I
think they have. I was told by CIX that the purported mails on the site were
a misrepresentation of, and far from the complete correspondence between CIX
and their client. I *did* print out the page from the website before it was
taken down, so I have a copy of what appeared on the site.

My problem is I have to believe someone - CIX or the person claiming to be
Ian. Not a hard choice for me given my past experience, but you have my
sympathy. I suggest you keep an open mind as I expect the truth will come
out eventually.


David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Press Release about the ibell website (long)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:31:42 +0100
Message-ID:
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Jon Hunt wrote in message <7s83k7$1d7$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>Of course the above would count for nothing if, as David claims, the email
>evidence from CIX was 'bogus' or 'misrepresentative'. However, a respected
>independent party - PC Zone - has now investigated the matter and after
>discussing the issue with CIX, has declared this claim to be false, and
have
>retracted their report of David's version of events and apologised to Ian.


They have told me they have *not* investigated the issue - simply put up
this bulletin for a quiet life, in response to a veiled legal threat.

I agree, though - I think I have been wrong in letting this rest, as it
gives a bad impression. I'll ask them to amend their story, and/or get them
to post here to set things right.

>That leaves Ian, CIX and PC Zone saying one thing, and David saying
another.


CIX have not made any statements one way or another, and PC Format have not
retracted.

So there you go.

David

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ous
From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: The plot thickens...
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:08:10 +0100
Message-ID:
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mike wrote in message <37E6E94F.3C3A@unmusic.freeserve.co.uk>...
>Did anyone see this?
>
>http://www.pczone.co.uk/guest/news/33341.html
>
>PC Zone say that they have been contacted by Ian Bell.




I guess they are after a quiet life. Thanks for letting me know.

I'll probably leave it at that. I know most people reading this NG know the
truth.


David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Press Release about the ibell website (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 10:59:28 +0100
Message-ID:
References: <37e41f2e.230477@news.clara.net> <37e61eed.131257140@news.clara.net> <37e6251a.15755090@news.bcandid.deja.com> <7s5su3$j6a$
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ibell wrote in message ...
>In article , "David Braben"
> wrote:
>After five days of mulling over my post, this is the best lie you could
>come up with David? Continuing this is silly. I never recieved any call
from
>Cix nor was I ever contacted through E-Mail.



I assume the fact that this 'ibell' is posting from a Macintosh, and is
using the same build of Outlook Express as Louis is a pure coincidence?

Mind you, if it is a fake it is very plausible. It had me fooled. Thanks to
Damien Guard elsewhere on this thread for drawing attention to it.

;-)

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: CIX Website issue - the end
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:29:58 +0100
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All,

I am going to stop responding to posts on this issue. All it is doing is
perpetuating
the childish flame-war, and taking up time.

I've spoken to the guys at PC Zone and PC Format - they just want out of
this ridiculous argument, and I sympathise. There seems little point
perpetuating the argument on their sites.

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: BBC Elite source code (was Re: Contrasting Stories.)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:43:19 +0100
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Paul Taylor wrote in message <7sa36c$r53$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article ,
> "David Braben" wrote:
>> Elite took two of us to perfect all 22K of code (in the original BBC
>> version).
>
>I don't suppose that a) you still have the source code, and b) you'd be
>willing to let me have a look at it, would you? Pretty please?


a) Yes - assuming I can find a machine that can read the discs.
b) I was wanting to make this part of the Elite Club thing, but I doubt it
now. It would need Ian's permission.

David Braben

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Article: 31791 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Ian Bell where are you?
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 17:29:32 +0100
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Here's another copy of the press release. I've stopped posting on this
subject.

David Braben

Jerry Edwards wrote in message <37E96449.90DAD285@mindspring.com>...
>Does anyone know what the *&%^ happened to Ian Bells page?


PRESS RELEASE

A number of publishers, including PC Format and PC Zone, have been taken in
by a scurrilous ‘press release’ purporting to be from Ian Bell, co-author of
the 80’s classic “Elite”. They have published elements from this without
first checking the facts, but they have behaved very reasonably and have
amended their stories after reading postings to the USENET group
alt.fan.elite, and discussing the issue with CIX and myself. This release is
intended to set the record straight.

As was discussed earlier this year on the newsgroup, I intend to offer old
versions of Elite, Frontier, etc for download from a part of Frontier
Developments ’s web site (which is currently massively out of date), as long
as we can get the required clearances. These will not be public domain, but
will not be charged for (a subtle distinction preserving rights). It is
likely that sources will also be made available via an “Elite Club”.

Ironically I am prevented from putting Elite on our site as it was a joint
project and I do not have permission from Ian to do so. To further
complicate this I believe Ian has sold his rights in Elite, but have no
confirmation of this from Ian, who has not been replying to my
correspondence. With this in mind I inquired of CIX (the publishers of the
site) as to the identity of the site holder (as it may not be Ian Bell), and
asked for a contact address, making my wishes to offer Elite very clear,
together with an offer of retrospective permission for Ian Bell’s site.

It is only after a lack of any response over a period of three months that I
asked CIX to remove the site. Rather than finally triggering a response as I
expected, this caused a purported email correspondence between ibell and
staff at CIX to be placed on the site. A director of CIX has told me that
these purported mails were far from complete and seriously misrepresent the
dialogue between CIX and ibell, putting both CIX and myself in a very bad
light. I understand it was this that was the final trigger for the removal
of the site.

I am happy to discuss any of the issues involved, including issues raised in
the dodgy press release. I strongy suggest that web publishers remove this
from their sites, or at least check out the facts for themselves.

This problem can still be sorted out and the web site possibly re-instated.
For more details please look at the lengthy dialogue on the USENET group
alt.fan.elite (which can be seen on the Deja News Archives at
www.deja-news.com if they are no longer on your news server).


David Braben

I can be contacted at: dbraben@frontier.co.uk

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Elite and Frontier Sites
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:25:57 +0100
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All,

Could people who have Elite, Frontier, or First Encounters based sites, and
would like us to link to them from www.frontier.co.uk - could they please
mail me with the URL.

For legal reasons we cannot link to sites which have Elite code images, or
Elite related code images on them.

David Braben

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Article: 32252 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Braben taking down other sites files?
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:44:12 +0100
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Matt Dibb wrote in message <37F10302.CE0000BB@cwcom.net>...
>
>
>Robert Nelson wrote:
>>
>> I've noticed since David Braben got Ian Bells site taken down other
>> sites have taken down Elite files such as NES world at
>> http://www.emuclassics.com/nesworld/ and Matt Dibb's site at
>> http://www.hoopla.cwc.net/lotf/ which has a notice
>>
>> A nastly legal situation appears to be brewing on Alt.Fan.Elite. A
>> such certain pages/files may no longer be accessible. Please be
>> assured that that will be reinstated as soon as possible.
>>
>> Has David Braben threatened these sites too or are the just playing
>> safe? If Matt Dibb is reading, please reply.


I have not threatened any sites other than the www.cix/~ibell one, and even
that was out of desperation after 3 months lack of response from the site
holder. Since these people are reading afe, they will also read this.
Perhaps Mr "@junk.co.uk" or "matty" have been trying to make trouble?

;-)

David Braben

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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Questions questions
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:17:48 +0100
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Due to the number of questions I've been sent recently, I've finally got
around to putting up faqs on the Frontier site for Elite, FE2 and FFE on
www.frontier.co.uk.


Hopefully this will be a first stop for people before mailing me.

Thanks.


David Braben

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Article: 32986 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Braben changes his story on his Bell site take-down
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:32:39 +0100
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Jon Hunt wrote in message <7u2a8a$cmn$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>Have others seen the Elite FAQ that David Braben has recently released?
>
>David has totally changed his explanation of why the site was taken down.
>Before it was because he threatened CIX with legal action over the
>distribution of the Elite Files, and Ian Bell refused to remove them. Now
he
>says that the reason (singular, note) CIX took the site down is because Ian
>Bell posted the email addresses of CIX staff, which broke the terms and
>conditions.


I stand by both. The FAQ and the press release (which is shortcutted from
the FAQ anyway) are the same. Both CIX & I thought a threat to remove the
Elite site would trigger a response - the purported emails sealed CIX's
decision, and they removed the whole ibell web space. I don't deny that if
the dodgy mails had not appeared on the site then CIX would probably have
carried out my threat eventually, but this would probably have only been the
Elite site.

>Ironically David is now saying that he has no objection to the Elite Files
>being posted on the net, so it seems his orignal legal threat against the
>Ian Bell site has evaporated. And hence this whole palava was for nothing!

You seem to have forgotten that the original purpose of this fiasco was to
put the Elite files on our site here. I am still awaiting a response from
the site holder.

The FAQ is intended to clarify things, and avoid this thread continuing
indefinitely in the stupid Derek Smart flamewar style. I have posted here as
it concerns the faq, but I will not keep posting on this question. I suggest
people go to the faq instead.

David Braben
www.frontier.co.uk

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Article: 32987 of alt.fan.elite
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From: "David Braben"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.elite
Subject: Re: Braben changes his story on his Bell site take-down
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:39:44 +0100
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John Jordan wrote in message ...
>Sorry, just couldn't resist responding to this. Call it a 'new
>information' exception :-)


Yes - me too!

(oops - what have I done!)

;-)

>>> Elite+ is still available new in Europe on the PC from Entertainment
>>> International under the "Empire" labelfor around £10-£15.
>>
>>Isn't this the pirate publisher that Jan Kutar mention Ian Bell was
>>looking for evidence on? Why is David promoting this vesion of Elite,
>>since he's usually so hot on protecting his royalties?


They have permission from myself and this third party and are paying
royalties. I can only suspect that there is a dispute between Ian and this
third party about exactly what rights were sold, as Ian should not be
getting involved otherwise. Their license has (just) expired but I see
nothing wrong with selling through their stock. Perhaps "matty" could
explain?

>>Well that explains the tension between the two I'd say. Where were these
>>interviews and are they on the web anywhere?
>
>An interview with the libellious bits removed is floating around
>somewhere. It used to be on Ian's site :-)
>
>Also there's a joint Braben-Bell post containing the details of the
>retraction on Dejanews somewhere.


Yes - it's shortcutted off my elite faq.

David Braben


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